| Total Views: 567 - Total Replies: 25 |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/09/2008 08:45:29 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
Claire22 wrote:
I agree. I think that Larry really is trying to say that our politicians have made our govt. humanistic............and I would really agree! Especially all the shenigans that have been going with Ohio politicians! It has been one drama after the other! I don't think govt. & church mix at all. Even God told Israel not to want a king......because it would be a mess.......and it was!
|
yes and no... I think we've gotten worse as time as gone on... But our country was always humanistic. Most of our founding fathers were diests who pretended to be Christians at best...
|
Now here I have to correct you. It is true that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, two of the more prominent founders, might be called deists, but what about all the other men who signed the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, as well as fought for our freedom from Britain? The truth is the majority were orthodox Christians. Even Franklin seems to have been more of a theists, as deism would not recognize a need for prayer and divine intervention as Franklin apparently did.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/09/2008 08:51:11 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
starheel wrote:
I guess I kind of see what you're saying, but your definition of humanistic might be a bit broad, as by your criteria even much of church government would be considered humanistic. I don't know about yours, but at my church we don't have a prayer meeting to decide who mows the church lawn, and I don't think God expects us to. I think a government that respects natural law can be considered godly, whether or not it's overtly religious.
|
the reason democracy is humanistic isn't because man makes decisions... its that man is the ULTIMATE decision maker... in most monarchies and any theocracy some form of diety is the ultimate authority and that is admitted (even if the diety is the monarch)... but here, its by the people for the people, which makes it all about us...
|
Our system of government is a far cry from pure democracy, thank God. The founders realized that a popular majority could be just as tyrannical as a king, and so they sought to craft a republican form of government which was founded on precedent, tradition, prescriptive law and consensus, not the whims of the masses. Though we may not have always practiced it perfectly, the idea was that our laws would be in line with natural law (the dictates of God-given reason) and the Christian tradition, not simply the result of a majority of people. Believe me, I'm no fan of true democracy, and I'm glad we're not one, but I think your insistence that it is necessarily godless is flawed.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/09/2008 08:55:51 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
starheel wrote:
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
Claire22 wrote:
I agree. I think that Larry really is trying to say that our politicians have made our govt. humanistic............and I would really agree! Especially all the shenigans that have been going with Ohio politicians! It has been one drama after the other! I don't think govt. & church mix at all. Even God told Israel not to want a king......because it would be a mess.......and it was!
|
yes and no... I think we've gotten worse as time as gone on... But our country was always humanistic. Most of our founding fathers were diests who pretended to be Christians at best...
|
Now here I have to correct you. It is true that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, two of the more prominent founders, might be called deists, but what about all the other men who signed the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, as well as fought for our freedom from Britain? The truth is the majority were orthodox Christians. Even Franklin seems to have been more of a theists, as deism would not recognize a need for prayer and divine intervention as Franklin apparently did.
|
the majority of them were deists... and even if they were Christians, they absolutely were not apostolics, so its not like they were following God anyways... They were "Christian deists" mixing Christian terminology and smidge of its theology in with deist ideas... Either way, they were absolutely NOT real Christians.
|
I'm afraid you need to investigate this matter further. Certainly many were strongly influenced by deism and other elements of Enlightenment rationalism, but most of them were not deists. In addition, one should not limit 'the founding fathers' to just those involved in crafting the governmental framework of the new nation, but all those who were involved in building a society in the new world which was overwhelmingly Christian in character and belief. Also, I don't think one has to be Apostolic in doctrine and experience to be led of God or have some degree of relationship with Him.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/09/2008 09:07:48 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
starheel wrote:
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
starheel wrote:
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
Claire22 wrote:
I agree. I think that Larry really is trying to say that our politicians have made our govt. humanistic............and I would really agree! Especially all the shenigans that have been going with Ohio politicians! It has been one drama after the other! I don't think govt. & church mix at all. Even God told Israel not to want a king......because it would be a mess.......and it was!
|
yes and no... I think we've gotten worse as time as gone on... But our country was always humanistic. Most of our founding fathers were diests who pretended to be Christians at best...
|
Now here I have to correct you. It is true that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, two of the more prominent founders, might be called deists, but what about all the other men who signed the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, as well as fought for our freedom from Britain? The truth is the majority were orthodox Christians. Even Franklin seems to have been more of a theists, as deism would not recognize a need for prayer and divine intervention as Franklin apparently did.
|
the majority of them were deists... and even if they were Christians, they absolutely were not apostolics, so its not like they were following God anyways... They were "Christian deists" mixing Christian terminology and smidge of its theology in with deist ideas... Either way, they were absolutely NOT real Christians.
|
I'm afraid you need to investigate this matter further. Certainly many were strongly influenced by deism and other elements of Enlightenment rationalism, but most of them were not deists. In addition, one should not limit 'the founding fathers' to just those involved in crafting the governmental framework of the new nation, but all those who were involved in building a society in the new world which was overwhelmingly Christian in character and belief. Also, I don't think one has to be Apostolic in doctrine and experience to be led of God or have some degree of relationship with Him.
|
The majority of the men who signed the constitution were deists. The first handful of presidents were all deists. Many of the leaders of our nation at its birth were deists. we assume America is led of God because we live here. That's it. It has nothing to do with whether or not it actually was. That's human nature. There is absolutely no rational, scriptural reason to assume that America was led by God to exist other than the simple fact that it exists and we're here. We are immoral, we always have been, and we were founded by deists who followed a god with the same name as ours, but who very much did not act in the same way that ours does.
|
I don't believe America was the divine special creation of God, but I do believe that the fact that so many biblical principles were part of our traditions and culture has contributed to the blessings and prosperity we have enjoyed. I really don't know where you are getting your information on the founders, but I would like to direct to the website of a reputable group, www.wallbuilders.com, where you will see many examples of the founders' own words about their beliefs which, unless you are prepared to believe that they were all liars, disprove your assertion about their deism.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/10/2008 02:01:04 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
|
starheel wrote:
I don't believe America was the divine special creation of God, but I do believe that the fact that so many biblical principles were part of our traditions and culture has contributed to the blessings and prosperity we have enjoyed. I really don't know where you are getting your information on the founders, but I would like to direct to the website of a reputable group, www.wallbuilders.com, where you will see many examples of the founders' own words about their beliefs which, unless you are prepared to believe that they were all liars, disprove your assertion about their deism.
|
ummm... Just because someone says they follow "Jesus" doesn't mean they really do. They followed the philosophy and religious ideals of deism, they just did it with Christian terminology... Its kinda like the Gnostic Christians where they were Gnostics who mixed in Christian words... only with Deism instead of Gnosticism...
|
Whether they actually followed Jesus or not (and who truly does this as they should? not I, nor you most likely) they believed in in the tenets of Christianity and thought of themselves as Christians. If someone believes that Jesus Christ was the son of God, both divine and human, they are to some degree of Christian belief, whether or not all their doctrinal understanding is correct. So do you believe these men were liars as well as godless politicians? I happen to believe that they were sincere.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/10/2008 02:08:37 |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
you guys are too buys looking at public opinion...
You don't realize that thsoe men, by and large, wouldn't have been allowed to be in any form of leadership if they didn't pay lip service to the popular religion of the area they were in.
For instance. George Washington wouldn't say "Jesus" or "God" in any of his speeshes. Why? Because he didn't want anyone to feel like the God he was talking about was disincluding them.
plus look at the Treaty of Tripoli that happened in 1796. Article 11 reads:
|
Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
|
If the founding fathers founded a nation on Christian principles, why did they not even admit that? and if the God they kept referring to wasn't the Christian God (as we suppose) who was it?
|
Washington wouldn't have needed to say 'Jesus' or 'God' because the populace of the colonies was almost entirely Christian, they would know just what he was saying. As for the treaty you quoted, keep in mind the context. Jefferson was trying to avoid futher conflict with the Muslim powers of North Africa, and what he says is true, the political system of the U.S. was not founded on scripture, but on a heritage, culture, and tradition that was thoroughly Christian in nature. While we have never been a "Christian nation" in the sense of having an established Christian church, we have almost always been a nation of Christians. Furthermore, putting the Constitution aside, the English common law that we inherited from Britain and which we use to this day is the direct descendent of the laws put in place by King Alfred, which he took directly from scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: Claire22 on 05/10/2008 03:19:50 |
|
Let's get off all this old history. Face it, we have always had the freedom to worship God as we wish, which immigrants from other countries did not have that luxury. As to whether or not some of our founding fathers were/were not Christians has nothing to do w/our history. What counts is the democracy that was given to every individual, and that the Constitution and the checks and balances of our Govt., was one of the most brilliant creation of govt. ever on the planet. Yes, America is not perfect.....................but countries are made up of humans who are not perfect themselves. So, instead of debating........which I am thinking that a debate of the past few posts have been meaningless in my opinion.....................I would like your opinion of the most perfect govt. on the planet AT THE PRESENT TIME! Because, if you don't like America......................go to another country............believe me, there are many, many immigrants who would love to have your U.S. citizenship.
--------------------------------------------------------------
A Humble Servant
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
