| Total Views: 593 - Total Replies: 31 |
|
| POSTED BY: starheel on 05/14/2008 00:08:34 |
|
Just when I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way, an article from the Pentecostal Herald reassures me. Allow me to quote the column by David Norris, "Prophetic Perspective":
"Certainly, we understand that Israel serves in some respects as God's time clock. Further, we know that the psalmist intoned, 'Pray for the peace of Jerusalem'. Further, God has promised to bring Israel back to Himself. Yet, despite the reconstituting of the nation of Israel, the Jewish people are not restored to God. Most Jewish people in Israel are not religious, and there is a considerable percent of the population that does not even believe in God. Israel will be restored only when they recognize their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Thus, while it is our responsibility to share the gospel with the Jewish people, we must leave the results in the hands of the Lord. Other actions need to come under scrutiny as well. Whether the United states should offer military aid to Israel -and how much should be given- is a political rather than a religious question."
Thanks to David Norris for speaking the plain truth. I have gotten rather frustrated that some Christians, some of my family included, have the idea the the primary purpose of the U.S. in the world is to protect the modern state of Israel and its interests. They seem to think that we must condone any and all actions the state of Israel takes. The truth is, the modern state of Israel is not the covenant nation of the Old Testament. That is why many orthodox Jews reject it. It is a purely secular entity. Furthermore, even if it was a reconstruction of ancient Israel, it would make no difference, because that is the old covenant which has been replaced by the testament of Christ.
To clarify, I'm not opposed to the state of Israel, in fact I think it is a good thing. I'm not saying that we must necessarily not aid them. After centuries of persecution, it is perfectly understandable that the Jewish people should desire a homeland of their own. I think Israel's status as an outpost of Western civilization in the Middle East is valuable. I have no patience or sympathy with Hezbollah and Hamas or any terrorist group. Whether the creation of the state of Israel was a good or bad thing is irrelevant, it is a reality that should be recognized. I support Israel in reasonable attempt to crush such violence. What I am saying is that the United States is under no essential obligation, biblical or otherwise, to endanger our national security to futher Israeli interests, or to support Israel's actions. The state of Israel is not God's kingdom and never will be. We look forward to the New Jerusalem for all nations, not a particular tribe.
Many Christians become upset, and rightly so, when American presidents attempt to pressure the Israelis to give up such and such a piece of land. However, neither is it necessary for a U.S. President to endorse Israeli actions to regain more land. In short, the job of the American president and the rest of our government is to look after the security and interest of the American people. To think that we can or should do more is untrammelled hubris.
Many Christians believe that if we do not "support Israel" American will be judged by God. If America is judged, it will be by the inherent laws that God has imbued to the nature of the world, not because we fail to aid a certain modern, secular state. Futhermore, the task of the Church is not to, as David Norris cites, give "money for the restoration of the Temple", or concern oureselves "with how to restore animal sacrifice", but to lift up the banner of Jesus Christ to all people, of all nations, until He comes.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Soli Deo Gloria
|
|
I believe the restoration of Israel by way of their recognition of the Messiah will not occur until His return, when all the world will know, and as such every knee will bow, saint and sinner alike.
My opinion on the political argument of support is this. Israel has ,most agree, the most efficient and accurate intelligence agencies in the world. They had a team on the ground in Syria observing the nuclear plant 13 days prior to the strike. That same team used hand held lasers to guide the bombs that were delivered by F-16's. No choppers ever entered Syria. That same team, after the attack, returned from Syria back to Israel on foot without detection. I don't care who you are , thats good. At a time when terrorist and rogue countries are out to harm us, we need an ally like Israel which happens to be located in middle of it all. We need them as much as they need us.
The religious argument-- Are you so in tune with God that He has told you personally that this is not His will ?...me niether. The Lord works in mysterious ways. You have stated that Israel can take care of itself. True, but they do so because of our support. Just a short run down of what we supply Israel..
Fighter Planes F-4E Phantom 50 F-15 Eagle 98 F-16 Fighting Falcon 237 Helicopters AH-64 Apache Attack 42 Cobra Attack 57 CH-53D Sea Stallion 38 Blackhawk 25 Missiles AGM 65 Maverick AGM 114 Hellfire TOW AIM 7 Sparrow AIM 9 Sidewinder AIM 120 B AMRAAM Patriot Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile These very weapons are the backbone of Israel's safety. Israel failed God several times in the OT and He still recieved their repentance, He still kept them from being wiped out. How do you know that our military support is not the work of God ? If we didn't , who would ? Could they have survived this long with out it ?
There is more to this subject than just our political, religious and passionate opinion. Unless you fully understand all the mysteries of how God works and you know His perfect will, that is all we have, opinions derived of the flesh that does not understand nor comprehend the ways of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: Claire22 on 05/14/2008 04:42:06 |
|
I personally agree. God wants Israel to be a country. A little tiny country in the middle of alot of enemies, and yet they have managed to survive. Even when the UN goes against them...............God has kept them
--------------------------------------------------------------
A Humble Servant
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: Claire22 on 05/14/2008 04:56:01 |
|
I am not calling America "God". In fact, I am confused w/your answer. What I am saying, that Israel must supposed to exist, as that little country has survived the unsurvivable, and is still there, and making BIG waves on the world political front. Why? I stand by my posting.
--------------------------------------------------------------
A Humble Servant
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
nothing Israel has faced in the last 60 years was insurmountable when they had American military technology behind them.
During those wars against the "whole middle east" they were using technology that was decades more advanced than that of thier enemies. It was like going at tanks on horseback. It doesn't matter if its 10,000 to 1, if the one has a tank and the 10,000 has spears, the tank is gonna win.
|
This is true, but without American backing , they would have been on horse also. Actually the fact is , God would have used someone, somehow to support the cause. No one here has even remotely suggested that America is God or even Godly for that matter. The fact is God has used situations that may seem "salty" to accomplish His will.
John 9
1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
So a man spent his life being struck with blindness so God's will could be fulfilled.
Luke 22
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me:
Here we see Jesus tell them to take swords. Jesus set the stage for one to be hurt for the sole purpose of a lesson and a miracle to come. For God to use America, as sinful as the nation may be, to help Israel is not outside the history of His ways.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
The problem is that you are formatting history to fit what you see as Biblical prophecy so you can make statements about the current world that aren't necessarily factual...
Whoa brother, I may be the new kid in town, but your not going to inject your opinion into my statements and call them mine. I am afraid your going to have to explain the above.
1st. what part of history did I "format" ?
2nd. where did I say anything about biblical prophecy ? What I stated above is just simply biblical, do you refute that ?
3rd, what part of my statements concerning the current world are not factual ?
Israel is only there because the US and Western Europe decided to put them there... When they put them there they gave them a ton of weapons to defend themselves with (top of the line stuff from the world's superpowers)...
If it were any nation but Israel, you wouldn't say what you do about it, but because it is Israel, you say its God. That's silly.
That is not silly , that is biblical. Israel is God's people. But I would also state that any nation in the world right now is in the current status they are in because of God. To downplay the direct effects that God has on events in our world is silly. Even more so for a believer.
Its like thanking God that your car didn't explode when you turned the key even though there is absolutely no reason your car would explode when you turn the key.
Makes no sense, irrelevant to my post. However prayer is not a bad idea considering you are in error in the fact that turning the key to a car sends a spark of electricity that ignites gasoline in order to begin a cycle of over 160 miniature explosions per second. I would say that gives one enough reason to pray.
|
As I said , I am new here so I am not used to the posting styles of some. Forgive me if I am reading your post wrong but there is much more respect to be gained from actual substance than belittling sarcasm.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: Claire22 on 05/14/2008 06:49:50 |
|
Didn't the U.S. give Iraq weapons during the Iraqi-Iranian war? The fact is the U.S. has given many countries weapons when they were friendly, and then when the tables turn, these same countries use our weapons against us. So, don't say that Israel is still alive because of us......when other countries received weapons from us also. Plus, Germany and other countries have been supplying our enemies with weapons for a long time now. God knows out world's political scene. He raise up and destroys kingdoms. We are not in control..............He is.
--------------------------------------------------------------
A Humble Servant
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
Claire22 wrote:
Didn't the U.S. give Iraq weapons during the Iraqi-Iranian war? The fact is the U.S. has given many countries weapons when they were friendly, and then when the tables turn, these same countries use our weapons against us. So, don't say that Israel is still alive because of us.....
didn't say that , said it is because of God, just pointing out He could have used us
.when other countries received weapons from us also. Plus, Germany and other countries have been supplying our enemies with weapons for a long time now. God knows out world's political scene. He raise up and destroys kingdoms. We are not in control..............He is.
|
PREACH !!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
The part of history that you formatted is that the only reason Israel won any of those wars is because thier air force was basically the American Air Force and the American military at that time could have made a legitimate argument that they could have taken over the whole world...
That part is totally fabricated, my words never came close to saying this. You are "formatting my words in to get your opinion across"
The only reason Israel as it is now is because of the West... The problem is that the Israel that exists now is almost nothing like the Israel that existed in the Bible... The real question we need to ask is if that even is Israel in God's eyes.
Good question, Lets see, is a sinner still savable in Gods eyes ? hmmm. If so then for your own salvations sake you might agree they are His people till the end.
As far as prophecy, you should probably read the whole thread. When talking about Israel in modern times, prophecy is always an issue, especially when you say that they are being protected by God...
But thats not prophecy, that is stated by God. Period. Do you pick and chose which scripture you believe and leave others to the wayside? God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You may change, He will not.
and lastly, what wasn't factual... Well, the simple fact is that you have no idea if God even cares about what we call Israel today, you are making an assumption that isn't backed by any facts. They didn't win the wars they've been in because of miracles, they won them because of the military equiptment we gave them. They aren't there because of a miracle, they are there because people felt bad about not going in when they first were being told of the concentration camps and didn't believe it...
If they were on basically horseback and won the six days war, I'd be with you, God is protecting them... but as of now the best we have is to be inconclusive...
2 Samuel 7 23 And who is like Your people, like Israel, the one nation on the earth whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people, to make for Himself a name—and to do for Yourself great and awesome deeds for Your land—before Your people whom You redeemed for Yourself from Egypt, the nations, and their gods?
24 For You have made Your people Israel Your very own people forever; and You, LORD, have become their God.
25 “Now, O LORD God, the word which You have spoken concerning Your servant and concerning his house, establish it forever and do as You have said.
1 Chronicles 17:21-23 21 And who is like Your people Israel, the one nation on the earth whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people—to make for Yourself a name by great and awesome deeds, by driving out nations from before Your people whom You redeemed from Egypt?
22 For You have made Your people Israel Your very own people forever; and You, LORD, have become their God.
23 “And now, O LORD, the word which You have spoken concerning Your servant and concerning his house, let it be established forever, and do as You have said.
2 Chronicles 9:8
Blessed be the LORD your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the LORD your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness.”
Ezra 3:11
And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the LORD: “For He is good, For His mercy endures forever toward Israel.” Then all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
Isaiah 45:16-18
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.
Jeremiah 3:12
Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: ‘ Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD; ‘ I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,’ says the LORD; ‘ I will not remain angry forever. That you have transgressed against the LORD your God, And have scattered your charms To alien deities under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,’ says the LORD.
Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “ If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
As far as I know the sun moon and stars are still there.
Scripture is not inconclusive
Yes, Israel was God's people... The question you need to ask yourself is if the people in our world who call themselves Jews have any relation to the people who were called Jews 2000 years ago. I would say that no, they don't have anything to do with Jews 2000 years ago.
Are they the same spiritually ? No. Is it the same bloodline ? Yes. Note the scripture above and count how many times the word "forever" is used. I base my opinions on scripture, you base yours on what exactly?
Hate to tell you this, but your car is not ever going to explode unless something is wrong. If you actually thank God that your car didn't explode every time you turn it on you are a very, very paranoid person.
It isn't a miracle when something that is suppose to happen happens. Its a miracle when something that ISN'T supposed to happen happens.
I thought birth was concidered a miracle, isn't the fact you wake up everyday concidered a miracle ? If you don't want to call it a miracle then ok, but you can not refute that God had His hand in it.
Israel winning those wars should have happened if you looked at the weaponry of each side.
Your car blowing up is not suppose to happen unless someone put a bomb in it, but since that didn't happen either, it isn't suppose to blow up.
the problem is that there is no substantial evidence that God is doing anything with what we call Israel... Its all speculation and fearmongering about the end-times...
|
Substantial evidence ? Speculation ? Is it speculation that you are saved? After all , there is no "substantial evidence" that you are. I mean anyone can "speak in tongues" right ? What substantial evidence do you have to prove it was of the Spirit ?
Your arguments would be understandable coming from a scientific atheist. But your not, how is it you "require" proof of Gods hand in the world, especially that of Israel ? You seem to so easily write off the Word of God in exchange for mere coincidence derived of simple human intellect. I can at least give scripture to edify my thoughts. Can you ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
larry_boy_44 wrote:
My point is that what we call "Israel" is not necessarily Israel.
See, in truth, we don't ahve the first clue if those people are actually descended from the Jews that lived there in Jesus' time. Its incredibly unlikely that they are purely descended from them (and that is a big part of being a Jew is not mixing race).
The modern Jew does not follow almost ANY of the laws God gave in what we call the Old Testament. God said that He will provide for Israel, yes, but just because we name a place Israel doesn't mean it actually is.
But the place today is the same as God lead them to is it not ?
You quoted a lot of scriptures, scotty, but not one of them stated that these people have anything to do with those people back then.
Also, on the topic of Israel, if Israel is God's people forever, why are Christians the ones who are going to get to heaven? I mean, is heaven even mentioned in the Old Testament as the destination for those who have died and served God?
All of them stated forever..where do you see in scripture that the word "Israel" pertains to us ? You don't , so you have to take it for what it says. You can not read scripture and then simply say , "I don't believe that part because I can't see it". And yes, there are plenty of prophecies in the OT speaking of the messiah to come that will save ALL mankind.
Faith is great, and God will keep His people intact. The problem is that there is no reason to think that the people who live in what we call Israel are God's people. They are not truely of the bloodline of Israel because they are no longer pure-blooded (see: the Samaritans) and they do not follow the same religion on any level.
God's people are intact, though, they're called the Church. You know, grafted onto the vine and all that.
My last question is this:
If God was going to protect the Nation of Israel, why didn't it exist from when Alexander the Great took it over until 1948?? That's over 2000 years that Israel was not its own nation. But, see, God did NOT protect the political entity of "Israel" because the nation-state does not matter, rather the people who follow after God are what matters.
|
So then basicly to you, the OT is irrelevant in any form ? The "jewish nation" is irrelevant in any form ? And what of the jews who have converted to christianity ?
I am sorry, the Word of God is our "meat", a light to guide the way. It is God. If you can not provide scripture to support your opinions then they are just opinions. Faith is not just 'great'. It is the very substance that fuels your salvation. This generations non-chalant attitude toward the sovereignty of the Word of God and the living essence of the Holy Ghost to work the will of God is sad and frightening. It is the reason we have threads asking, "Where is the fire of Acts.?" , "Where are the miracles?", "Where is the revival ?"
But that is another thread altogether and one I will likely bring to bear in the future.
God bless...
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't get me wrong, we need standards. But N/A don't care about your standards, the devil don't care how your dressed. You come sit on these pews to look cute, you'll go to N/A lookin cute..We better be getting in the presence of God"--Bro Mike Mitchell, Times of Refreshing, Bossier City UPC
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
