I dont understand why holiness standards is such a big issue and a topic that so much time is spent talking about.  It is a non issue.  Unfortunately, a saint gets the Holy Ghost, knows nothing about God and now they have a problem, people want them to dress and look holy.  One day living in the world and of the world, now gotta be holy.

If our pastors would preach the Word peoples lives will change. Step by step, lead the people.  Start with our new converts teaching them that prayer and bible reading and lots of it will slowly start to change their lives.  Teach them to listen for the still small voice of God.  Teach them what the still small voice of God is. How do you know this voice, how do you know it is God How do you seperate what you think from something that comes up from within.  Teach them to know that you listen to the thoughts that line up with the Word and throw out the others. How do you follow God? What to expect in living for God.  How the enemy attacks, and our weapon of counter attacks. Gosh, dont teach standards but teach them principals. Have a ministers wife Teach ladies modesty.  Perhaps, show slides of women and men of the world and how they are dressed.  REally show the church what those pants look like on a lady, what men look at. Show the short shorts, and talk about lust.  Show the see thru shirts, bras showing underneath.  Show the tight pants, panty lines.   Dont tell them they have to wear a dress.  Give them a slide visual of modesty and let people draw their own conclusions.  God will convict if you get the right slides.   Teach them about Faith, what it is and what it isnt.  I would think that a pastor could start from A and go to Z in a Wed. night bible studies.

You know, if people would be taught, their would be no need for police and a set of standards.  People would get the message as to why.  I think their is far to little teaching and far too much dictating and or just expecting people to comply with far to little teaching.  

To me, telling someone that you should not wear that which pertaineth to a man doesnt convict a lady.  A man isnt going to wear most ladies pants or ladies clothes.  Give those ladies a slide visual and see if it convicts.  Basically, that is what God did to me.  He had me go to the mall.  I sat and watched people and he showed me everything he wanted me to see.   I went into the stores and bought skirts before I left the mall because of what God showed me.  

I ask, why all this wasted time and energy talking and discussing a subject.  Why doesnt someone start a new converts forum to teach the new converts the basics to grow with.  They should grow first and God will change along the way.  

You know, this kind of stuff, makes me want nothing to do with church and church people.  Seriously.  Get a life people, live for God one day at a time.  Let go and let God and everyone will be a Happy people.  

I can see that this is a serious subject for you.  I agree with you in that standards need to be delt with, with compassion of course.  Although, I have never seen a minister preach from the pulpit about standards, unless it was compromising the learning environment.  Every minister I know allow people to grow at their own pace.  It is not fair to expect someone to change thier standards over night.  Although it can be done, God can do anything.  From what I notice is standards in from members and conviction for their own lives.  This is usually when I see people pointing a finger.  But I do agree, if people spent more time witnessing and studying the word, who knows. 

But dont allow this to hinder you and your worship and attendance.  If your minister is doing something that has hurt your feelings or upset you maybe you need to seek him out after you  pray about it.  Sometimes people get to discussions and it leads them to other unfortunate topic such as this.  Even we have allowed it to take up time in our lives, because we are all guilty of looking at someone and asking to ourselves "what were they thinking". 

I will be praying that you find direction and peace with this.  Continue to push for God.  What we do for him is whats important not what others do. 

Have a great day, and dont forget to smile  :)

Pat, I do agree w/you.  Standards are a non-issue.  The only people who have issues w/it, are those who never had convictions with standards, and felt that they were forced upon them.  This is where the real problem is.

I wish that the moderators would change this forum name into a broader subject line.  I feel that it has been talked to death..............and it is really a non-issue.  This is between an individual and God.

I agree.  Why do we judge each other so much?  Yes, by fruits, we can know a person's spirit, but, I have seen so many people kick a person when they have slipped and fallen.

You make a good point. 

I will only change my teaching of the Principles of Kingdom living (Standards) when the Lord shows me diffrent.  We must teach the reasons why we do what we do.  Notice I did not say we must teach Holiness.

Holiness can not be taught.  Teaching people to dress a certain way, or not wear a certain thing does not teach Holiness.  Holiness is an internal possession by choice.  Yes it does spill to the outside and the fruit of such internal Holiness is evident in "all manner of conversations".  This translated from original meant the way you live.

Yes I teach them, yes I believe in them and believe we are in error to not teach the why and what not. 

Here is where I pray I make the diffrence.  It must be done as a shephard.  We must stand before them, and encourage them to draw closer to God.  To only follow us as we follow JEsus.  THe problem has been that there are those who stand in the pulpit and they teach it with a Cowboy spirit.  Sheep are not to be driven like a cowboy but lead by the shephard to the Good Shephard.

THe additional problem is that to many "saints" spend to much time pastoring and not enough time pasturing. Leave the pastoring to the pastor, and spend time pasturing.  Feeding on the things of God.  Pulling upto the table of God.

I have seen the people who claim to be in The Church bury the wounded and it is unacceptable.  The Church was designed to lift one another up, we ar ethe body and if a part of the body is trying to destroy another part then it is infected.  If that happens to the physical body that part is often cut off, or at minimum treated with high power medicine.

Its time the Church looks at herself in a mirror and examines herself as to where she is at and to where the Lord wants us to be.  We must stop all this bickering about not wanting to comply.

Simply there are rules inthe Fathers house.  They began  in the garden of Eden and there ar erules yet today.  Now you have the choice to follow them or to not follwo them. If you feel the need to kick someone when they are down, I would think maybe your salvation is the one in quesiton not the one who has stumbled.  Jesus said love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and love thy neighbor as thyself.  Kicking people who are down is not in compliance.

Anyway, just my 2 cents

God Bless

You know...I agree with the statement: "Standards are a non issue".

So many kids at school ask me how I can wear a skirt all the time, not cut my hair, etc... To me though, I LOVE wearing skirts, not cutting my hair. I do it because I LOVE God and I want to please Him. When kids ask me standard questions I just say: "It's something I do for God. Because I love Him. It's one of my ways of showing that love." I don't push Deuteronmy(spelling?) 22:5 or other scriptures. I wait for THEM to ask ME where it says in the Bible. Most the time they do. THEN I can witness about so much more than just standards! I actually get them in the Bible...

Another way I look at it:

He made me a woman....shouldn't I look like one?

Anyhow...I LOVE the standards. I've never had a problem with it. It's a non issue.

There's my two cents...

Raquel

First of all...Sorry for saying there's my two cents at the end, I didn't know you had already put it. (I admit I didn't read any other posts, I just posted.)

Secondly... I agree with you! We can show people the scriptures all we want, but until they actually grab hold of God and start reading the Bible and desiring holiness, nothing's going to happen! God will change our inside and THAT will show on the outside...whether by our attitude or dress...

Raquel

Uhh Standards is an issue. Unfortunately it does not get preached enough.. what ever happened to the old tradition when preachers preached against short skirts.. see? every  church you have mentioned about in the other forum is getting to where the skirts are shorter, the hair is trimmed and people are going to N/A because of this and yet they dont' want to preach standards.. kinda hypocritical to me.

Where I do agree with your opinion of standards and there seems to be a compromise.  I find, as a Pastor, a place where preaching is for encouragement and teaching is for such things as standards.

I believe that we need to catch the fish and allow God to clean them.  I do not avoid standard issues in the Church I am priviledged to serve, I do however seldom PREACH it but i often TEACH it and I ALWAYS LIVE it.